Indo-Canadian Interview 21

              SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewer: Professor, G. S. Basran Department of Sociology

SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewers Professor, Gurcharan Singh Bastan 
Date of the Interviews July 12th 
Time begim 3s 13
Language! The Interview would be conducted in English.

G. Basrant What is your age now?
Informant: I am 63
G. B.: So, you came here when you were a very small kid?
Informant: Yes, year and a half.
G. B.: In which year you came here?
Informant: In 1924.
G. B.: How many children do you have now?
Informant: Two children.
G. B.: What part of Punjab you come from?
Informant: Jullundhur District, village Jandialla.
G. B.: Lots of people are here from Jandialla, I gathered that. When, you came here, of course you were very small, your father was here at that time.
Informant: No, he came first time in 1906, then he went back to India, in 1918, got married there and came here in 1924, he brought us over here at that time.
G. B.: Can you recall, I am sure you talked to your dad, recall some of the reasons coming to Canadat People came for the economic reason other came for social or for others.
Informant: No, we came because of economic reason, because there was not enough land over there.
G. B.: And do you remember, how he got the information about Canadas Like he founded from hits friends or from other sources?
Informant: No, probably must be somebody, but I never asked him.
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G.B. Do you remember him discussing the condition in India, like political, social and economic, I am not talking about your family, but general condition?
Informant: What really I can explain the conditions, especially around our village, they did not have enough land. May be only got an acre, one and half acre or at the most two acres of land in our areas, that is one of the reasons, they had to come out.
G. B.: Economically, so, they were so tight? 
Informant: Yes, that was the reason.
G. B.: Oh, I see. You don't remember of course very much, like when your father came, do you recall any condition of the passage? I assume he took the boat from Calcutta to Hong Cong?
Informant: Yes, that is right, from Hong Cong to Vancouver, he took another boat too.
G. B.: What kind of food was served, people were cooking themselves?
Informant: Most of them they cook themselves, because the ship from Calcutta was just like our ship, and then from Hong Cong here they came in thied class, and they were still like in the hole.
G. B.: So, it means that was sort of crowded?
Informant: Well, it is the problem of money, the condition would be good, if you travel first class, but if you have not enough money you have to travel that way and the condition is bad.
G. B.: When you went to school here, what kind of education did you get?
Informant: I went up to grade six.
G. B.: So, you dropped out after that?
Informant: Yes, I did.
G. B.: So, what did you do after that?
Informant: I started working in the Saw Mill.
G. B.: Right here?
Informant: Yes, here.
G. B.: And what were the conditions at that time, like your father owned this Saw Mill at that time?
Informant: No, I was working for somebody else, not this place, in New West Minister Canadian Lumber Company.
G. B.: Could you tell something about your experiences, working in that Saw Mill, what I mean the experiences first, the type of work, secondly, the type of wages, third the living conditions, sort of the job security,
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the type of wages, third the living conditions, sort of the job security, if there was any, and your relationships with other workers, whether you were working with the East Indian or Whites, those types of things?
Informant: I really started doing work in 1936, when I was 1A. The reason I went to work, there was no money around• And I started only in Summer Holidays, that was only 40 cents an hour, that time. After two months, I did not go back to school.  There was my band not to go back,, but I could have gone back, I was just by my own.
G. B.: So, you just continued working there?
Informant: Yes, I started as a prime of land, eventually, in eight months I went up to a grading position, got a better job, and I worked myself up. I stayed en the same job, I stayed five years. I could have got another jobs if I wanted, but I was not interested at that time.
G. B.: What about the wages which you were getting compare to the others? 
Informant: Ten cents an hour less than the white workers. G. B.: Less! Informant: Yes.
G. B.: What was the general working condition? For example, were you staying with your parents?
Informant: No, at that time I used to stay right at the place in the bunk house, they had bunk houses for Chinese, Japnese, Jarmans, and East-Indians for all kinds ef nationality.
G. B.: How was the condition in the bunk houses?
Informant: Oh, they were not bad. There was cook house, where you pay so much for the food. And we had to pay so much for the bunk house you live there.
G. B.: What were people doing for example, you have Guru Granth Sahib there?
Informant: Yes.
G. B.: So, people would actually have, so see, this was the time before Gurdawara was there?
Informant: No, Gurdawara, lots of them were here since 1920*s. First Gurdawara, they had on Second Avenue.
G. B.: What year that was built, on the Second Avenue? 
Informant: In 1912, some people say that. But I am not sure.
G. B.: I see, so, you would come to the Gurdawara every Sunday or every month, or every now and then?
Informant: No, just may be four or six times a year.
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G. B.: But you weuld have Guru Granth Sahib right in that place?
Informant: Yes, same as it is like new, it was no definite church or law street.
G. B.: Like people, what I am getting at before the Gurdawaras were built, whether peeple were praying or worshiping right on where they were working?
Informant: No.
G. B.: No, oh, I see.
Informant: There were Gurdawaras *at different places.
G. B.: In your work experiences or when you were staying with your parents, and going to school, did you have experience of any element of discrimination or racislm?
Informant: Not that much, very little, that goes on even if you are white here and fighting among each other, as far I concerned I never had a problem.
G. B.: Have you sort of politically and socially involved in the community? 
Informant: In seme extent, in the last 25 years not before that.
G. B.: It is political involvement, like actively supporting if political parties?
Informant: Yes, I have some political support in certain parties. G. B.: Then, what about the community involvement? Informant: Oh, I do not involved in it too much.
G. B.: Neither in our own community, like East Indian nor the general community?
Informant: No, I get involved in the white community, in politics, provincial govt. federal govt., I get to know lot of people, attend lots of functions.
G. B.: Which part of the city you live here?
Informant: Actually, we lived in the south part of Vancouver, when we first came here. And we lived here I say 40 years.
G. B.: So, now, you have been actively involved in the community life,
politics on provincial level and federal level, but not necessarily,
in the Bast Indian community of the Gurdawara politics what you call it?
Informant: No, I am Involved, when general people come from India, politicians whatever it is, I get involved in that, invite them over for dinner or something. If high commissoner comes here you invite and entertaine him.
G. B.: Sure, I gather you around, you are millionaire, if not multimillionaire. All of us have some dreams when we come here or when we grow up
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in this society, you think your dreams have been fulfilled? Informant: Yes.
G. B.: What about your children, do you think, they are as well off or may be better ©ff than what you are?
Informant: Well, they are really better off than we are, because there was no money around, we had to work hard and they get a good lead because I xake money, so naturally, my children are going to be better off than me.
G. B.: What do you think of the conditions in Canada new compare to when you were growing up?
Informant: I think conditions are good. As you see over all the Canadian. There is no difference than I was growing up.
G. B.: Do you visit India quite often?
Informant: Oh, yes I go back after every two or three years.
G. B.: What do you think the conditions there?
Informant: Well, I think conditions are good, if any condition you want to make them, if you are net going to agree with something and 100# against them, and naturally they are not going to improve your lot. Same is here. We go out, and say to the govt. we want this way and no other way, there not going to give us we want. They might give us, if we got twenty demands, they would give us two or three demands, but they are not going to give us twenty.
G. B.: What about the material condition of the people? Like if you look at, suppose 194? and comparing with 1985?
Informant: Well, I went back in 1948, and got married there. So, I came here in 1924. Then there was 24 years difference. Then, I did not go back til 1972.
G. B.: Did you see the improvement in the material things?
Informant: Yes, in the villages, the villages have not changed that much. The only change they are making roads to different places. Buses and things like that* There was not a big change.
G. B.: How about the changes in the other areas, for example, character the morality, the integrity, sort of general, you think the situation, when you went after about twenty or thirty years, is better than in 1948, you went back?
Informant: Oh, yes, I think so. Even the farmers were little better off. Every year they are getting more crops in the fields, and the industries, and getting better.
G. B.: So, it is improving in every sense of the world. What do you think sort of the Sikh agitation ? What is going on there now?
page 6 Informant: I think, it is all wrong.
G. B.: So, you support sort of the position of the federal govt. in reference to, like I have about three er four question about the Sikh demands. First, the demands which were made of whether they were reasonable demands, second, the role of Bhinderwala, assassination of Indera Ganchi, and what happened after that, third, the storming of the Golden Temple, I am particularly interested in your comments in the reference to the implication of those events. What do you think of these different issues, like, the Sikh demands, the role of Bhinderanwala the Sikh leadership in general, the role of the govt. storming of the Golden Temple, the assassination of Mrs. Gandhi?
Informant: Well, I personally, think, No. one was the things started, the Sikh community always^ divided into two or three parties, they never do get along, that is number one weakness. If one group represent the case to the govt. They get arrest that way. Somehow they get wild all the time. Everybody wants the power, that is the problem.
And the second is, when you have part like that, then people like Bhindera-wala , they knew that he is got two three grade education. Everybody spoke against him then he was left out. And all the police force of the Punjab he had after him most govt. official , they were all scared of him.
And I personally, think that Indira Gandhi let it go too long way, that is the mistake she made. She should have cleared out may be right after the years the thing was not gone that far.
G. B.: What do you think of the implication of all these things happening in Punjab, in Vancouver or in Canada, not particularly in Vancouver?
Khalistan may be little bit here, the issue was dead, there might have been few people. But since they stormed the Golden Temple, then it flared up again.
G. B.: So, you think it has divided the Sikh community here or it has not really made any difference?
Informant:  Well, I think people are divided naturally. Some don't like the way they operate. They are not going to get the rule by force from nobody, then take the gun, you got to sit down and dicuss the matter and see what* can get out of it. As, I say you never going to get 10Q& of your demands. But many govt. even here, when the provincial govt. goes to the federal govt., they would give them 100$ of their demands?
G. B.: So, it is sort of negotia tion you take some and you loose of it?
Informant: Yes, that is right, whether you operate for the union or nothing, they want the moon, so it is not going to be end up with the happy medium.
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G. B.: Sardar Sahib, you have done very well, in every possible way, you are a success story in a sense. What do you think of the East Indian community today in Canada?
Informant: My first openion is that, I do not think that is ray job. 
G. B.: Why?
Informant: That is the way they are doing things, there are better ways doing things. They have lost their prestige here, the East Indian communities are no prestige here anymore in the last few years. They lost the prestige^ before the time they attacked the Golden Temple, I think they have lots of sympathy from the European people here. But then since they assassinated or killed Indira Gandhi and started dancing on the streets, they lost it all. It is just like, if you killed Mulroney here and start &ftbc|ng on the streets, how far they will let you get.
G. B.: Can I ask you few questions, reference to your early experiences of your father, your father is still alive?
Informant: No, he died in 1969.
G. B.: 1969! and what kind of work he did when he came here?
Informant: Labour work, Saw Mill.
G. B.: You said he came in 1907?
Informant: 1906.
G. B.: So he started working in the Mills, or CPR?
Informant: He went up the Interior and worked down there.
G. B.: Ontario?
Informant: No, Interior.
G. B.: Oh, I see, where did he work?
Informant: I believed he workde around uolden district up there somewher.
G. B.: Mostly, in lumber Mill?
Informant: Lumber Mills all the time. That was the only industry there.
G. B.: So, he is sort of got you started in a sense because he sort of worked in that situation himself.
Informant: Yes.
G. B.: Do you recall any experiences, which he mentioned to you of his coming here some sott of his living here, his passage to Canada things like that?
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Informant: Well, they had a tough time. They could not speak English, so anything they had to explain was either by hand or something like that. It is hard if you don't know English. So, they did live hard life, and the living conditions were no good.
G. B.: How were they treated by Canadian at that time?
Informant: Well, they kind of stayed away, stayed in the bunk houses, and worked all the time, they never got in the public eyes, not like now you get in the public eyes.
G. B.: Like they for example were given the right of vote, these things did not bother them that much?
Informant: Not at that time, there was not any voting, it was probably around when the war started just before that the problems all came up. They wanted voting right, because there was this fact people came first illegally, then, they stopped the immigration system, I think I am not sure what year, in 1908, then the illegal people came here in the early 30's. I think in early 30's, they started coming in here.
G. B.: How did they come?
Informant: Well, you know, people were living here, they said, it is my son. That is how they came in. Then finally, the immigration started picking them all up slowly, that is when Dr. Padhia, I think, he happened to come in 1930, I forgot the year,anyway he was quite involved to the community here, -$«4*e=iserd. to get these people free.
G. B.: So, they got them free in 1938?
Informant: Yes, I believe that was some where around that time.
G. B.: So, what would be your, if you are making the recommendation to the govt. would you say that the immigration should be limited to the type of jobs or which are available in Canada? It should be more related to the sort of the economic scene rather than in other ways?
Informant: Well, I think they don't even watch it properly. They let the people in their reperties or in all that, now there are problems in. If anybody lives in other country, he is got the problem as a refugee, no way he is any good to the country. He is in, because he may make trouble over there to start with, he is not going to be any different when he comes in.
G. B.: Any other experience, which you want to relate particularly of your early growing up or childhood or anything you want to add?
Informant: Not really, as I say, I never had a problem.
G. B.: Thank you very much, sardar sahib, for your time and the conversation.