Indo-Canadian Interview 22

              Inteiviewor:    Professor,  d. C. 2ar:ran
nt of Sociology

SHCII3 IK CAITADA
Interviewer; Professor, Gurcharan Singh Sasran
Date of the Interview; July 5th
Tine begin; 1:12
Language; The interview would be conducted mainly in Punjabi.

G. B.: How old are you now?
Informant:  I am 79, born in 1906.
G. B.: When did. your husband die?
Informant:  26 years ago. He got heart attack. 'Then we were living in India I mean stayed 10 years, he was elected a Sarpanch of the village.
G. B.: Wnich village?
Informant:  Pandory, near Mullanpur.
G. B. How many children do you have now?
Informant:  I have three children now, the fourth one died. One daughter is living in Piichmond., and the other one is living in Vancouver, may be you Tcnow Sabbu?
G. B.: Yes, I know him.
Informant:  He is my sone-in-law.
G. B.: Oh, I see. So, you are from Pandory Village, Punjab?
Informant:  Yes, we are.
G. B.: When you came here, how old were you at that tine?
Informant:  I was at that time, ny older son is 57 now, and. he was seven months old at that tire.
G. B.: You came in 1928, I think.
Informant:  Yes, that is right. *^ husband -rent to India, and he had soen all those problems and the'ha,3rd time they used to face, he_ used to te&l
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about these things. He told., that in those days, they did not want those very first people s^ay here. They wanted to kick our people out in sone-where else. But, they say that our people worked vex? hard and collected. noney; and filed the case, but sorae people used to ml;: with the immigration people. But, I'ewa Singh sacrificed his life, he killed Mopins, and one time they tried to shoot bin. ' That was Bela Singh, he prayed in the Gur-dawara and said, if I'itt singh is truthful then he would "be caved or escaped otherwise he would jet killed "by me. They say that he vrent to the Gurdaw-ara along with his shoes in AbbosFord Surdawara, they say he was a priest of the ^urdawara at that time. They were not working, they used to work for six months and other six months just sit around and eat. "hen Tela Singh cane inside, real the Bible in the evening tine, when he was done with the prayer and other ^ things, he tried to shoot , one "bullet went through his shoulder and other he could not make it "because people pushed hi in, then people heard the noise of .the "bullet, they came and beat Lir,i to death.  people .were saying, ire should not kill him, "beat hin quits bit .
Then, they were arrested , but jot out on bail because they wore Govern.-1* r.ent's people. lie changed hiuself, people used to tell these stories. There was a case against him, and he got four years imprisonment.
G. B.:  I heard one person died at that time?
Informant:  I Some people died they say, but I do not know about these things. Before that, they said Z?ant Singh- -Jhai.
G. B.: Yes, I was reading-, actually ho 'died, but he did not have any irn-jprir?,onmsnt, because Hopkins was supporting him.
Informant:  So, Mewa Singh said, that I would gst rid of Hopkins, and I would -r.ot kill him secretly, Sc, he killed hin in front of everybody in the court. ITy husband, was priest at that tir.s, ho ucod. to encourage my hus-band that you c-liould not looco your heart, I know, that they would hang rre up. So, ho got the death punishment, our people told the "ovenment people, that v.'e want to cremate his body. So, they used to tell these kinds of stories, they used to fight with each other, and kept on fighting. "Then my husband, went to India, they gave him so many awards.
G. B.: Did he go in 1914?
Informant:  I do not remember that.    rut "t tliat tiro    t'^re was " .ikcll moveneir'-. gbing .6r'.;   -
G. B.:  You then, came with hin §fter ^6u~ gpfr married? _'^
Informant:  Yes, I carie Tiith him. Our first son was only seven months olj. Then, after havin- stayed 20 years here, we went back again, so that our children would know our relatives over there. So, our older son got married in India. I-Ie said, I do not want to go back In Canada, they elected (villas people) him ±3 i. Sarparch ;f the village, he ^ ciuito bit work in the village;, nobody asl-te:! ^Hout a^t'iing for: ter> years. Then he' caiAO hero if tor ten yoarc. lie calls-1 me later on.
G. B.: When your husband, came first time hers, do you know the year, ha
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Informant:  I do not know about tha,t. His son; Ilust be in 1906 or 190?.
G. B.: When you used to talk to him,-when he came first tine from India, then boats used to come in those days?
Informant:  Yes, we came In the sea ship, it took us two months to reach here, 
G. B.:You took the ship from Calcutta?
Informant:  Yes, from Calcutta. Then, we came to Kon~ Con£ and stayed in Honj-Cong many days. Then we changed the ship and it took 18 or 19 days to come here in Victoria, "because our ship came to Victoria.
G. B.: In those days, what was the condition in the ship, about the i^eal and other things?
Informant:  The condition was good, they used to charge the money for the :r.eal alons with the fare. TJe used to £et ready made meal.
G. B.: Yes, that is rl^ht. But, people who came before that, there was no arrangement for these things. They used to cook their own meal.
Informant:  Yes, he (husband) used to tell, that when they came it took four months to reach here. They came in the ship, which used to run with the wind, they got their eyes sore and. cot sick.
G. B.: At that time, .they did not s®* the meal in the ship. They used to cock their own meal and used, to brinj their stuff to cook there in the ship. I think when you came the condition was little bit improve'.
Informant:  Yes, they were ok at that time. Before that, the very first people ha- seen many problem in the ship, and when they car.ie here they ii3.il to face different kinds of problem. They did. not know the lanjua^e. They used to work on the farms, some farm people wore very nice. They used to say them take the mill:, potatoes or carrots etc. They used, to tell, that one time they put the sacks in front of the vdndows and passed th-3 v:ir,ter like that. So, they had that much hard time. Then, these psopla used to do discrimination with our people, they used to work ir. the "ills, they used to pay less to our people. They started paying full '.*aje since our India c°t "the Independence.  '.lien there was a Second
G. B.: It means, the work for our people was quite heavy and hard and the i*a£© was low too.
Informant:  Yes, it was like that. Besides, the treatment and the behaviour was also not ~oo<5 to our people, 3ome white people were jood. too. Some bad too, just like us. You can find bad and ^ood people. They worked very bar-' in the Hills.
G. B.: It means people who were working in. the "ills, they used to live there in the Hills?
Informant:  In so Mills, they ucod to live there, and ^ome built the housej
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like now.  In soms Mills like Frigeno Mill, which is very bic.ln that !!111 people were living at that tine. They were after money living was very poor.
G. B.: He used to tell the conditions about Punjab, when he came here in 190?i do you remember anything like that?
Informant:  Yes, he used to tell about Kaster Tara Singh, that he changes .the group, sometimes he is here, other time he used to go to mix with other party. He used to talk about these kinds of things, I never asked the things like that.
G. B. The conditions like people had enough to eat at that tine, and other problems like that?
G. B.:When they used to work in the Mills and live there, they use'1 to live just with our people or there were whites too, your husband might used to talk about these things?
Informant:  They used to live separate and they had, their own cook. "very Mat!on used to live separate.
G. B.: They wore not fighting'with each other? 
Informant:  No, nothing like that.
G. B.: You used, to talk about that time and the people in those days, when 3ela Singh, fired the gun, whatever I read, that ho wac Hopkin's person. And Hopkins used to take noney from the people., he used to give the irvrdgration or do work for that person if he wanted to, or If he did not want to do that work for that person, he used to ignore It. That was the reason to fight with each other?
Informant:  Yes, that was the only reason.
G. B.: Then ^ela 3ingh went to India, and they say, that someone killed hin thero?
Informant:  Yes, they ~cy, that they Billed hin like ? c'ogl People T'ho were dose to hi-z village, they tell about.his -•''oath how it happened.
G. B.: People who were working in the "Tills at that tine, there was no Union?
Informant:  They were not before,the Mill people used to giva the work •;::.orn they want to and that is how it went ors, our people used to give "brilre or the drink, bribe they coul^ not give, so they u.3ed to irork like that. The Unions cane after the "Jorld ',Tar, and m;r husband was th? preEident of the Union too.
G. B.: Sardar Mitt Sigh?
Informant:  Yes
G. B.: It means the Unions started after the War?
Informant:  Yes, after the Second World War.
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Then we went to India,, "because jobs were £ood,/before that people who were unemployed they had to "be unemployed for a lonj time, and the one who were working stayed, on their work. The things were cheap and the money was not much, va£e was ^0 cents per hour. Then, in the Mills the waje was decreased, in some Mills it was ten cents per hour and in others 15 cents an hour. Then, the World 'Jar .started, in the middle of the 'Jar, they needed the Lumber, and the workers, so people Kent to the Hills for their work, and some went to the war. ' St the time of partition we were here. Then, after that wa went.
G. B.: Whatever is happening in India now,what do you think of them, like the agitation of the Jikhs, and their demands, and they have other problems too, and when your husband went back, at that tine we just jot the Independence at that time, at that ti;.ie people were thinking that they would improve the conditions, in some way the conditions are roo^ but iri come way whatever is happening, what do you think of that?
Informant:  I have been here since 2-'-!- years. Go, I do not know.
G. B.: And here you hear from other people what is happening in India and what has happened, what do you think of that?
Informant:  It is our nation, they kill each other, the Hindus tan* wac divided because of them (white) they created disunity amonj our Nation,
G. B.: The people in those days, used to live with love and ca3?e?
Informant:  Yes, they loved and. cared for their people, they were no dolnj like now. They used to respect everyone, they cared and used to love everybody, "Tow, it is not the sane, may be people ~ot too much money, or they have their relatives, I do not understand, people became very selfish.
G. B.: When people used to bs kicked out of the job or he did not have the job, then what they or he used to do, like now people have their unemployment insurance, then what our people used to do?
Informant:  Then, like there va? latan Sin-h, he did. not have a job at that time, he had three children/ He had two cows, and he used to £o to the Town on foot to sell the milk every day, he vred to walk there. He was illiterate. It i- before the Har. He" used to jrow little hit jarden. lie iiTe-l to live on the garden stuff in Summer time, and used to buy in the Hitter. 3o, he live:1 likp that way, when he dir> not have any work. After the "Jar, then ho -'ot the work, then his wife ^ied aftrre three years, there was noone to look after the children, so he took them to India and cane back here.
G. B.: Suppose, if someone lost the job, then they used to help each other?
Informant:  Yes, they use'' to halo like that. Cur people had the Vill3, llks Trpoor "ill", Paul Hill, there was in Hiss-ion/so they used to help each other in Difficult time.
G. B.: So, you think that people had so much love for or.o another, they rv-.e'* to c,?,re for the peoplo mere compare to now?
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Informant:  So, people used to care for each other very much. Like I told, you, our people had their own Kills like Kapoor Hill. . 3o, they used, to Differ work to our people, who were out of work or lost the jot). But, now people do not care for anybody and they do not have ar.ykind of love 'for the people. But my husband was involved in Gurdawara matters too much, since we came back from India. People wanted him to be on the committee, so he was Secretary, and one time President and so on. From here, they were living Uba 3mitt, used to to in the Fleet cars. He (husband) did not learn how to drive a car. Neither we could afford to buy a car, and one time, people were telling the car hit against the pole, so he was scared to buy one. So, he used to go and come back in the fleet car and used to spend Saturday and .Sunday there. I used to look after the kids at home, we had a cow, so I used to work at home. In this way, he used to'go Almost .dft 411 those Gurdawaras in that time. There used to the fights among our people at that time, our people never stop doing things like that. Sometimes, people had to stay in the Gurdawara until midnight because of the Gurdawara ceremoney. Sometimes, If he wanted••me:,1bo go with him, I used to say I do not want to go, because it was too late, you have to feed the kids and do house work that was too late. Another thing house used to become cold then you had to burn the hay to warm the house inside. 3o, I used to say that I am better at home.
Our people.do not think thase things. There are Singhs here now, they different, they have their own Parchar (speech etc.), they do not care for anybody, even they do not say hello to anyone. If you are "baptised, that does not mean you should not talk to the people, besides, they . should talk with the people with care and love. So, this is how these people are.
G. B.:It means these fights in the Gurdawaras are an old matter?
Informant:  Yes, they are, and they are not stopped. One time, there was a man named Tarlochan Singh, Saranla, they fought with each other, he said "hat you can do, break my leg? So, they fought with each other, and the other one broke his leg really. These fights would not stop • among us.
G. B.: why these fights occurs, what is the reason?
Informant:  We do not know. Just for nothing sometimes.
G. B.: Sometimes , some people say that because of leadership, everybody wants to come in the front like president or position like that?
Informant:  The one who wants to become the president, he becomes president by loosing his own house, I mean he has to sacrifice his family life and other things like that. My husband spent his whole life like that. I an telling yon, I spent a very harr! life, I never went out, arc! I was not use3 to wear good clothes, just used to be busy with the house T-Tork anc1 raised my children. lie iras always in the C!ur^a*.Tara. I hsA a hard tine, Tre <?id not ha* money, because he was no working, when he worked then T:O "built a house and got other things too. So, I'nean some people has the desire to hoard money, but he die! not have that desire. Actually
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he did quit "bit social service. lie sent money to our village Pandori to open the school over there, so now we had a school in that village. Inspite of that, he helped Bibi Parkash Kaur, Sidhawan, to "build that . 3|^|^:^Allege, so he used to do these kinds of things. >" ;\..v^VV--->;': .^
•• 'f'^V^'^'-'JH'.f GJ. 
G. B.: How did he, come to know about Canada?
Informant:  First, he, come to know from his sister who was married to Doabba side, she told him that here is one man who is going to Canada he asked me I should go too. 3o, she asked him, that you should go too. 3o, he used to tell that his sister suggested that he should go out in Canada v
G. B.: It means he came to know from Doabba people, because I know from our District, 7erozepur-and Ludhiana people were not many here. They were not aware about this country.
Informant:  Yes, still we do not have that many people from our districts. Still, people from Doa'b'ba are coming here, and they are in great number in this country. "Je went to India, and I did not call any of my "brother or sister. There was no law either.
G. B.: Which is your village?
Informant:  My parents village is oaholy, and in- Iras place is Pandory. These two villages are close together near 3udhar.
G. B.: We have people from 3nholy, named 3anghera?
Informant:  Yes, I know him he is my distant nephew, Then Kosse,r singh came to get those papers, I told him I do not have it now with me, they must have thrown it by now even it is not in India. My brother had some of that stuff, but he E.ISO died so how could you get that. Then, he was saying the way they had those cases and the way Mo:ra singh got killed, I would get them out of the court. 3o, these are the natters like that, then in California, the time we came, our people never stopped, there was a fight over there among our people, one was fro:* Dhary-
G. B.: Near Uba City?
Informant:  Yes, we spent two months o^er there at that tine, at that^our Rajirder (son) was little at that time. It took us two month;?,, he in-•'olved himself to stop that fight among ^ir people. Cur son got cick at that time. So, he have them, to co.mprf.se with sach other.
G. B.: At that time, people unod to go in train?
Informant:  No, WG had a car, it was TTirc Cirgh'c car, he was from Dhattaj' kay. 3o, we went with him in his car. In those days, the cars did not have the wipers . ',rent in the last week of "ovember, and came back in. the last week of January., The snow was -falling down, the wind-shields and the mi-"rror.3 ct^. were freezing, then wo took, thjs salt r,n^ ^pri'iklG"1 over the ^.-"-shields an^ reached with great difficulty.  7e went after that too. or.-.- con.3 wore very ^.mall at that time. *!e went to visit one of cur relative?. '.,re went all over like Mexican city, it was close to that place. In California, the Spackt&n C-urdawara, was opened at that time, they took our pictures wo wore wearing the ur.iform3 with the big swords. 2ar.t.y*£ r-.othe-r was there, and his mister too. 3o, on sor.e si^e Banty'c sister
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is standing with me and on the other side his is there. Spacton Gurdawara was being built at that time, the fight was because of money. They were saying that we shoul build a big Gurdawara. So, when, at that time, it was opened then they took our pictures.
G. B.: My father u~ed to live at that place, Spakton. So, in America that "waS.-the-.flTsf;5fiMaviara, they built at that time.
Informant:  It is beautifully built. 'Jhen we came back, then somebody stole some of our stuff, they stole his watch, I had big gold bangles ny parents gave to me, but nobody got those one.
G. B.:At that place, people who came first, they were in the *?ilitary in the British Army, so nan;' times they went through this country,   ^ like at the time of.^ueen Victoria's celebration, they came here. To, they saw that country, Ahry rrrcr'.g"^ "::r: -V.-.;: ^r_ y ~"d came here. 36,./if you,s@S," £hp--people came'from-our'CQuntry^at'that tine, majority of thea are Cikhs. AT that time, Sikhs were in the Array, they knew quite bit about these countries because they were in the British Army. 3o, that was the reason. Like, our father, they i-:ere four friends and the four of then resigned from the «r:.:y, and case in America, close-to Spakton, and there they used to work.
G. B.:hen our people came here (first people) first", they .iiust "be working in CK1 , they were building the rail?
Informant:  You mean here?
G. B.: Yes, 
Informant:  Yes, they were Trcrking in CPR, after that in the Mills. At that ti.no, they did not know the language, gradually they lear::od a little bit. At that ti;iie, there were no drugs, Alcohal etc. v/hich they v/ould take, just neal, butter was quite cheap, milk was very cheap, They use- to give the farm idthout any price. Cur people had the farms
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not use in any way.
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G. B. Any other experience about the old time?
Informant:  Well, we used to churn the milk at home and make our own butter. Ty tho way, when thrt 'Jcir sta,rted, thbre Tras ro butter available. ':.<* \\^ cow at that time, people user* to eat lots of butter -t that time, now they say you idll get sick if you eat butter. I say. we used to drink lots of milk and eat lots of butter, but we never got sick. Thon cur .people used to make friendship vdth the people who wore working in the pVeights (ships) and give them the boxes, used to take the meat so this way t'-%- '"reel to pass the time. !'ow, so many people? ,.0£-ne^here, but Irf th'dse days it, was veiy hard. If someone was 1° years ho could not core. 3o, poopls ha^. to change the Jato of birth an' used to call thorn, besidos h? corld cons if he ha^ his father hero.  -To:: pooplo called even their ddstant relatives, this law was passed after wo came here, it was not parsed, when we went
G. B. Yes, it was very hard at that time. Then, they stopped to give the immigration in 190?. They did not allow our people to come at that time. Then, they said in 1919 i that you could bring your children or your wife. Before that, nobody could bring his wife and their children here, it was in 190? and 1919.
Informant:  There was no law in California either. They passed that law later on.
G. B.: When Kama Ghatta Mam incident happened,' in 191^» he must be telling about that incident too?
Informant:  Yes, he used to tell about those stories too. "hen they returned that ship back, he used to tell that they collected the money at that time to fight the case against it. So, these are the matters.