Indo-Canadian Interview 23

              3IKHS IMTCAHADA
Interviewer: Professor, Gurcharan 3. Basran Department of Sociology

3Ii:iI3 I" CANADA
Interviewer: Professor, Gurcharan Singh Easran
Date of the Interview:  July I? ( 1985)
Time be^in:  11:00
Language: The Interview will be conducted in Punjabi as well as in 3njlish.

G. B.: How old are you now?
Informant: 72 years.
G. B.: Are you married?
Informant: Yes, I am married.
G. B.: How many children do you have?
Informant: I have three children, one boy and two girls.
G. B. Are you frou Dhuddi kay, Punjab?
Informant: Yes, I am.
G. B.:  In which year did you come here?
Informant: In 1930.
G. B. Kow old were you at that tiia;??
Informant: (Informant: I was approximately, 1? years old.
G. B.: '.'ere you married at that time?
Informant: Yes, I was married.
G. B.: So, your wife came with you at that time?
Informant: No, there was no law to bring your families at that time. At that time the child was suppose to be under 18 and unmarried too, then he could come here. Harried c~uld not come.
G. B. Then, when did your wife come?
Informant: In 1939 "the §8cond 'Jorld 'Jar started, then there was no ;wayv-' to 50, the '.Jar ended in 19*4-5 and we then went/in 19^7 in the nonth of June, j s
there for sometime. My son was horn In India at that time in 19;iS, then after that I "brought my family with me.
G. B. When you came first time, you used to study there? (India)
Informant: I went to school for three years to learn Urdu, that was a primary school, but I completed just grade three, and then, I spent two years in the Gurdawara to learn Punjabi.
G. B.: 'That was your main reason to come here?
Informant: The condition of the country T-ras not good, the working condition was not satisfactory, the farming was not paying anything. There was no development regarding the farming. The farmers were leading a very hard life, they living with hand to mouth. 3o, I made up my mind that I would go to any foreign country, even would 30 to Kalaya. Fortunately, our uncle from Nathu-vral, 5. "iranjan singh, his son was with me too, so ha sent four permits , for four of us. In those permits, he .mentioned my name, that you must send him. These four were, Gan.^a sin/::h. Da_rbajra_.__sjji£i}, who was my cousin, and the fourth one we could not fit according to the permit, so my younger brother, named Joginder singh 3M&, he was only 13 at that time. So, we prepared him to come with us. Ily mother was saying, that he is too young and he would 2° later on, but I said, iobody would get this chance later on, so you should let us go. Go, we came here .
G. B.: 3o, mainly, that was because of the condition back in India?
Informant: If ue see carefully, our country was not progressing in any way, since thet* "ughals were here. The country was involved in fightings about religion no unity with each other. Later on The 3nglish came,although they came for trading, but made India their house, they had full control on every thing. Gradually, after the death of Maharaja Hanjit singh they took Punjab too. 3o, in this way, nobody cared for the development of that country.  One time I happened to talk to a white man, he askad me, actually went to the registry line, he was a white man, he said to me, how many people are educated in your country, I said, very few. That white man said, there are only 3* who are educated, the English were there at that time.  lie said, the English did not do anykind of development in your country,?  I replied, no, only they constructed main roads and railway-roads, and some plan about the irrigation. They did not do much, so, our country, compare to these countries is two hundred, years behind. And since, we got our own Government, the farming is developed in a nice way, whether people did it with their own efforts or whether the government did it, the system of spray, seeds, their kinds, tractors, machinary etc. I was very happy to see this all.
Cn the other hand, the officers from small to big ones, they are all after money religion , could be few of them who thinks that is our country and we should make it our own home. They do not talk to you without bribe or money, whether, you sit thsre all day long. This is government's fault, not the public's. It is like that, if you do not put a rope in the neck of a animal he would ruin the whole crop. Go, 957$ people are after money and they are the people who are doing corruption, so how the country can progress when there is a lot of corruption disunity or things like that. It is very bad for the country.
G. B.: When you came for the first tine, you came by sea ship?
Informant: ?lrst of all, we came to Calcutta. The rate was only Ik or 15 rupees from Ludhiana to Calcutta. 'Te stayed there four, five days there. 3hai Sewa singh was with us, he came to see us off, he was related to us. He lived here before, but he did not cone back again. He went to India in 1?20. 3o, ha came to see us of, the ship was Jardin's. He bought the stuff like canned milk and other stuff before we boarded, in the ship. 3o, then we used to cook by ourselves on somekind of hearth and used to oper.d our time like thn.t. It took us 13 days to reach "ong Cong." Then, from there the ship used to stop on one side, and on the other side of the sea there was a Gurdawara. And, there, we stayed almost 15 days. The food was free, people used to pay 20 or 30 dollars according to their pocket to the Gurdawara (donation etc.) 'before they tised to" &ep£rt..l"vThere was no complusion, it was up to a person how much he could pay* That money was Hong Cong dollar.
G. B.: The second ship was better than the first ship?
Informant: The second ship was The Empress 6f Japan, that was very good ship, it was modern.. It was CPR*s , (CP Air Company) there used to be a swimming pool in that ship.  There were many facilities.
G. B.: "hen you reached here in Vancouver, you did not have any problem about your paper or immigrationpeople gave any problem?
Informant: No, we were late, because the ship was to reach to Victoria in the evening, but it did not stop in Victoria, instead it stopped in Vancouver. At Vancouver, there was no time for any meal, so they said, let these people get off the ship, ~£e did not have any problem, nobody asked any thing or about the papers etc.
G. B.: Your relatives were there to receive you?
Informant: Yes, my uncle was there to receive me. I'y uncle's son Inder singh and two three other friends were there too.
G. B.: What work did you do, when you first came here?
Informant: The time I reached here, almost all the "ills were stopped running. Hardly,very few were running at that time. The price of lumber was very down.
First of all, I did the farm work for three months, at Kamloop, it was in 1931- I used to pluck the tomatoes.
G. B.: Did it belong to Some of our people?
Informant: Yes, it was our people's farm. Daya singh, Dalip singh and also 3her singh, they were owning the farm.. After that, in October we went back, I and Phangan singh from "athu-wal. Then, we went to I!eo Lumber Company, we used to live there, there was a bunk house to live, and we used, to cook our own food.  /Je were Ik, 15 and. used, to cook in turns. Then 3hai Gurbachan singh Kutto Hajara , was a cook in Great Centre Lake. He used to cook for every body. He and. 3 ant a singh from ?tajo Ana, they taid, that Iliranjan singh called many children here, we v:ere eight or nine
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together, and lie was providing food to all of us and he was out of work too. He got the letter that you should cone, because you have lot of expense for .these children, they explained in the letter, that they arranged a work in the !!ill for him. That Mill used to run only four .days a weak, si:: hours a clay and 13 cents per hour. Then i;iy uncle said, if I would go, you are of the same age and. you would fight with each other. I would not go, you go. So, he sent me instead of him, at Port Alberni, it was Great Centre Lake. Then I worked there for six months. After that, Kapoor Lumber Company at Shook Lake, Victoria, there was Babu ji Kapoor Chand I'harodi wala and Jlewa singh Naya, they ran that Ilill.TIh 1932 in July then I came here. Here Gurbachan singh, who wa-. cook he came here too. Tl.ere were 60 or ?0 single people, we used, to live in the bunk house. There were no families, hardly few-. There was a cook house, which was separate from the bunk house. All of us used to eat together at the same place. There were two bunk houses, we used to sleep there in those small rooms, there used to be two small rooms -there. At that place, I worked almost 12 yearj. Then, that I'ill was shut down, we caiae to XSne6user then to I!issioa, so since that time we have been here in llission.^
G. B.: When you worked on the farm for the first time, how much money they used, to pay you at that time?
Informant: At that time, I remembered, there were so much tomatoes, that Bannery stopped to buy them. The tomatoes were over ripe. The farmers could, not pay the full wage to the workers. 3ven they (farm people) called Phangan singh and Dalip singh, because of that reason, that they were uncle's friend. They told, they would pay for five months 200 dollars, (from Hay to Oct.) Then Phangan singh called, me in August, when the tomatoes were ready to pick. It took three monthsrto pick those tomatoes, so they paid, only 5^ dollars for three months.
G. B.: And you used to live with them?
Informant:  Yes, we used to live with them, we used to make our own meal.
G. B.: ".Ihen you wore working in the Hills,the white people were working too, they used to pay the same wage?
Informant: Great Centre Laka^ the rates were according to the different kinSsof jobs. If you work iii^tne Hill, 'you get some cents more, if you work outside it was less. But, the white people were not working out side and on the green chain, or the ordinary job. From the beginning, the '/'hites, are the head, in the industries,main jobs they were doing, like now, and lower grade jobs, hard working jobs, ordinary jobs whose pay is less, these were for the other people or nation. These white people were doing main jobs. So, the pay is reasonably according to the job or work, what kind of work it is. But, it was not like that, he is white, and we give him 10 or 15 cents'more.
G. B.: When you were working with the white people at that time, ho;-- were your relations with them,
Informant: In the past time, actually, after"19?0 :pr 1971. the movement of black, white, Hindu etc., it increased quite bit, it was not like that before. It was quite less, it was still there but not up to that level. ""•^revor, the old white people ciaot now, they are happy to see anl they
page 5
have good friendly attitude towards you, they are happy to see their old friends. Uut now a. days the new people , let us not take the whites, just our own people, they do not want to see you with care and. affection. The whole age has changed, may be there is no training in schools, or may be they are not learning from the society or community,or nobody tried to reinforce these qualities in them, These things aro not there in children these days, like to talk with respect to someone or with love. Jo, it is hardly there. These children do not talk to others with sweet manners, with care and with love. The whites are worst compare to our children.
G. B.: So, our people in that time, when they used to have holidays like Sundays, how they used to spend their time?
Informant: At that time, there were no families at all. The Hills used to run six days a week Height hours regular time,. There were no unions at that time. The workman compensation board too,the worker used to pay half and half Company used to pay. There was a tax,impose! by the government, like putting the stamps on the cheques, whatever the rate was four cents or three cents, two or five. So, only Sunday was left, on that day, a person used to wash his clothes or else they used to get together like in our country, people gather at one place and chat, so, they used to chat together, and some used to read some book,so that is how they used to spend their time. There were no cars, and people would not go to city. If there was an important work then they used to go, otherwise they used to live in the "bunk house an.* the cook house in the "ills.
G. B.: '/hen our people used to go outsid^, or in .the rsstaurats, movies, feey used to restrict you going there?' > '
Informant: No, they did not. Usually, I did not have that habit, going out like that in the pub or movie etc. But, I did not have any particuler problem.
G. B. T<iThen we come from India, we have every kinds of dream doing the things do you think now, that you are happy with your life, whatever you used to think that is fulfilled, you cannot get everything, but still generally speaking are you happy?
Informant: Yes, I understand it, when you come here in this country, if you are working hard, then you can stand on your own feet. At first, where ever you go to settle down, no matter what place, you have to work very hard to establish yourself, problems come, but you should not mind them, it is not good. People who are working hard, and the people who are educated they do not starved to death at all. They can always be on their feet. If a person stay away from bad things and does not get involved in them, he can alvrays be happy and stand on his feet, but if he gets involved in bad people drinks, pick up fights, he ruins himself and ruins the nation too. So, a person cannot succeed like that. So, when I came with my wife, she was homesick it was natural. I explained to her, that where we get our livelihood, and we can sleep comfortablt without worry, we should consider that place our own country or home, and be satisfied with it.
G. 2. So, you are happy|t along with your children?
Informant: Yes, we are happy, We always say, that our uncle "iranjan singh has done so much to us, all our relatives he called here. If we count these relatives, I think there must be 500 people including the children.
page 6
G. B.: When did you go to India last time?
Informant: I went in 1933, and cama back in March, in 1984.
G. B.: How were the conditions over there, when you left, I am not asking about your family, just general condition, how is the situation according to your opinion?
Informant: There, a villager is not blamed for anything, but majority of the sikhs are living in the villages. But, I did not like the government department, because, as 600 or ?00 years The Mughals ruled over India and two or three hundred years The Znglish controlled everything over there.   ,. If the country was taken back with the big sacrifices, and everybody was happy at this victory, the whole India was very happy at that time. They should had kept it with the same happiness. The government tried to improve many departments like education department, power, Technicle latitute, but she did not do it on a large scale or with a big plan, that was limited. If people are happy, they do not bother <W£*i£-!feSh the government, "ore they would be poor, unhappy and economically tight, they would bother the government more. So, these kinds of people get against the government.
The first responsibility of the government was about the religion.  Like in 1932 there was an agitation about the Sikhs demands, like Anandpur or . others I forgot, but I remembered that those demands were not that special, if they would have given those demands they would not have lost anything. So, by not giving those demands, they increased a big problem, there is disunity which is increasing day by day. Gradually, they would loose the country. There was no reason giving those demands, they were very simple. I am telling my own opinion, that they should haven the demands to Sikhs. 3y giving those demands, they would not loose anything, no harm to the constitution, no harm or hurt to the country. The Sikh religion is different compare to the other religions. Its bottom ground is completely pure. It has some meaning. Our Guru ITanak tried, to make the Ilughals understand with the religious preachings, they did. not fight, they did not say any bad thing to anyone. The Guru ITanak showed the right path to The "ughals with His teachings which were based on good deeds not anything else.
But our present government should not have gone that far. You can settle down the matter with two people if there is any problem, but you can not settle any struggle down if it is the matter of a ITation. "oreover, you cannot bring any change by pressing the whole nation down. You cannot e:rpect a good result by doing that. I am even saying that if Indra Gandhi was smart, she was smart, but in foreign matters, she was not or could not prove herself smart in home matters. She-should have given Sikhs demands keep them attached with her, she should never have fcept them a£ i:distant. She could have them for anything, they would do anything for her, because the Sikh Nation is always ready to serve the country. But, from this point she could not judge the situation, and in some extent, the people like Shajan Lall Chaudhary, and other, even our Sikhs in Congress, I do not give them the credit.  These Sikhs, as a represantative of congress has the duty to run the government, but they should not have gone against the Sikhs, and, q& said, oh just take out those two Santes from the llarminder Sahib, "..'e have the faith in Santeo through the Gurbani, so we should respect these Santes, not all Santes are the same, but Gurbani says that we should respect them.
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But if they are good, then we should respect the-".. But, the government failed "because she did not rive Sikhs demand", the agitation about Chandigarh, water and GO on. Likewise the canals and religious matters, these things were nor-.-rial but they reached up to that point, which is bad for its futur. I am not saying that I am ajo.in.st Russia, he used to help India quite bit. Somehow, naturally, when there is a fight or struggle within the coiir-try, ard the situation gets very delicate then any party could call hi:.1 to cone in the country. 17 e would come and ready to come with the "ilitary. For our country and for onr people to become slave again is a shame. But, there is a chance to become like that. If this natter kept on lingering then the third world war would start in the middle of India and Middle East. So, gradually, Russia has a chance to jet that country, but nay be it would jet ruined before that. So, it is very bad for the whole world.. I felt like going an:! see Indira "andhi, that you should jive these religious demands which were reasonable, ^ven I wanted to sea 3ante for that purpose, but I was very busy making my house there. I would tell you about Saute Bhlnderan 'Jala, he was very straight truthful, whatever "irankari was doing to disrespect our jurudawara, he stop-cd them as we know that. The other thing he wanted to bring that Sikh religion back because it was diminishing. The people became sikhs again because of him. So, for these two things I jive him credit, but the third thing I did not like about him. I am not criticising, but I just feel it. I went Amritsar, then I came to my village and I was talking to some of the people there that I saw there juns in the hands of Singhs, if they wantel to keep these weapons, then why we should have laid down the foundation by Ifftean "eer.
I said, this is the religious place, and there should be separate place or the castle for these weapons. I feel bad about this Sikhs agitation, the government made a mistake, if our leaders and the government waere right this would not hayp-'<ha£pened.  The person has to ask for the thing, he needs. So, the government has to think about it and take out the result, but she did not bring the right result out, neither she can do that. It is the he-ads duty to take the responsibility of the whole country, the head should listen everybody's view point and he should make his own judgement on the basis of those views. ITot everyone's views could be right, but he should ju-'ge with his own intelligence. I am saying, that we all should live cooperatively and should have the feeling of brotherhood.
G. B.: In which year your uncle came here, and how did he come to know about Canada?  And what was his nane?
Informant:  My uncle came in 1913- His nai.ie was Iliranjan Singh, T'athuwal. II-3 was born In ^n^Jjgffi^T ^u"k when he was 18 mpne of my grandfather settled down at ifathuwalla.  ?irst of all in the villages people knew about this country, especially the Doabba people knew quite bit about Canada compare to the ?!alwa people. He came to know about it little, bit from people and also got the information from outside.
G. B.: From where, outside, he came to know?
Informant: 1. I do not know that much.
G. B.: When he came here, he must used to talk with you, what kind of work he did here first?
Informant: At that time, there were the Hills. There were quite many "ills "but, the lumber Mills were not many at that time. In those days, if someone used to get "the work in the Hills, he had to work with the hands because there was no rrachinary. Other people who did not get work in the Kill, they used to work for the farmers in the fields, like making the "bails 3o,.they kept on doing this kind of work till 1930- The work and the progress was slow.  7ro~i 1933 "the lumber started to go outside, then the "ills even the stopped ones started to run. The wages were very low at that tine, 12 or 15 cents per hour. They increased then slowly. There were no unions in those days. At that time they used to get 12 cents or 15 cents per hour now it 12 or 15 dollars an hour.
The older people and my uncle, they used to tell, that when they came to Vancouver, there were timber trees all over the Gravel and on the Main street. There were huge trees of timber,cider, and fur etc. There was not any kind of development there. An^ in Burnby, when we came, there was 5000 and 1000 acres of land was barn all over, where now the city developed..: This country is developed after the second world war, before that it was not developed.
G. B.:First people did quite hard work!
Informant: Yes, they did very hard work. I say people who came after them, or our children and the people vrho are coming would cone, iur first people did too much for us, our children or people could not pay them back anything. At that time, when they used to come to work on the farm, they did not know any english. They used to a'sk someone to write the letter, and -pay 25 cents for this purpose. Few were educated at that time. Besides that, they had to pay 25 cents more to prepare the envelope, writing the address etc. They used to work in the field like gathering the grass or something like that. Then, they vised to sleep there on the grass, because there was no other place to stay or live. So, they used to work at day time in the field and sleep on the grass at night, They used to make an arrangement to cook there by themselves, (on the farm) They even did not know how to get the eggs or buy them. They did not know how to ask for the eggs. So, one of them used to bent and started saying kur kur just like the chicken, and the other person used to throw the small stone behind the first one. Then the white woman (farmer's wife) used to understand, that he is asking for eggs. So, she used to bring the eggs immediately for them. 3o, they did so much for us, we cannot pay them back.
G. B.: It means when our first people came, they used to work on the farm.
Informant: Yes, they used to work on the farm and in the Mills. And some of our people used to work in the rail road, because at that time, they were constructing new long CFH rail lines. After that CNR was made, there were our people too, who used to work.
G. B.: They must be getting low wage at that time?
Informant: Just few cents per hour at that time. Those people did harl work, they sacrificed quite bit. !*Tow a days we sea people coins hero, they are educated with the degrees and so on.  TTany of them got work here, but if
page 9
he say- or thinks he io smart it i.-, not trus, because the old tine was like that when there i.7 no foundation of any kind how you can put your bed down there. Tow you cam put your bed here in these kinds of houses. But in the past there were floors made of planks, sometimes there were holes in those planks , ordinary windows with somekind of cloth blinds.
So, those people had hard life and worked very hard. Actually, they did. sacrifice so much for us. They cared for the families, relatives, even the distant relatives because they loved them as their own sons and daughters. Then our people first came in 1902, but they were not many.
G. B.: Just tell me about those people, they came first in 1902?
Informant: Yes, but few came. Then, in 190')-, they were not nany but in 1906 quite many came here. In Vancouver, there was no Gurdawara, the Gurdawara which is on Second Avenue now, it was built in 1903.  In 1905 when people came then "astar Harnam singh from Dallewal, he was not educated but he was smart, so people used, to call him "aster. He was telling that they gpttaphouse on rent for 35 dollars per .aonth. And, they ware using it as a Gurdawara. He was saying that our Doabba people used to pay 25 cents for the rent of that house, but the people of Ilalwa were not paying less than one dollar for that prurpose. So, in this way they used to pay the rent.
G. B.: Thirty-five dollars a year?
Informant: No, no, monthly, for that house they got for rent for the purpose of Gurdawara.
G. B.: First of all they started Gurdawara in that house?
Informant: Yes, in the beginning, in 1906, they had that house as a Gurdawara. They used to pay 35 dollars rent per month. It was in Vancouver. Then, they built a Gurdawara on the Second Ave. in 1903. Before that, I do not remember tfrhich year, the white people (government people) said, that we would set you people on the Island, which was close to Andaman. They wanted, to set the Asian on that Island. So, they said, we will show you that place, if you would you like there then we would set you there. So, Sham singh from Jagroan and. there was another person with him, they went with them to Andernan to see that place. When they came back, they raised their both arms and were saying aloud, do not move out and go to that place for God's sake. That place is not suitable for us, the mosquitoes would eat us there. So, they told to the people and gave the report about that Island, that do not move from this country, no matter we have to work so hard and. face the difficulties. They were not going to leave this country, but after that report, they came to know sure, that the whites are playing trick.
G. B.: Some say, there used to a Gurdawara at Golden at the very beginning?
Informant: Yes, the old history tells about it. It is like that, when the rail-line was under construction, the timber system in Prince Jeorge towrrd.s Golden, in the past there were not many Kills., "because jfcM&rica"^ "  ' did not have the market of Turner• because , he had quite bit Timber at that time. So, I have the feeling, that the Gurdawara of Golden was built by those people who used to work in the rrow rail road, at that time. That Gurdav;ara kept on going, as thoss people were i%orkin0 there.
page 10
But after that rail road was completed anu the work was finished, than the ~urdav:ara was shut down at that tine. At sometime, there was a Gur-' dawara at Prince Itupert, because at that time our Sikhs used to work there, "but when the work was finished, then that GUrdawara was shut down. The !*und and the Holy Bool; of that Gurdawara, was given to the Gurdawara of Vancouver. Like this, there was one in Abbis 7ord. There was a III11, Hill Lake, v.hich is still there. The Hill was owned by the Tarthuy family. The Timber around the railway and the Air Port, they used to bring hers. And almost '!0 and 50 Sikhs were working here. The machinary was not that :r.ich at that time, that is why it used to seem that majority people are working in the "ills. Then there was a 5 ant "under singh,frori Dhalewal. He T*:a~ truly a saintr and very religious minded person. Dhai "iranjar. ~ingh, from Thouly tfala, we got the report from them in 19?6. I and. my son want there, ray son was in the university at that time, he wrote the report. IT 3 was studying in the U. 3. C., they demanded the report about the East-Indian people of this area, whatever is happening and what would happen in the futur. 3o, in this way, we got the little bit information about it.
Bhai .Sunder sin^h from village Natho Kay near Mo«;a, he was working in the Hill. He thought e,bout building the-Gurdawara, where is the old G"r-dawara now at present time. That is one acre land he bought l!teaM'-B0san to build a Gurdawara. There were two brothers from Nalikj they gave a big amount forthe Gurdawara. Bhai Miranjan singh told abbtt it. He told that they got (Nlranjan singh) 3600 dollars from Malik'brothers, to build a Gurdawara. ( that money was borrowed from Malik people)
G. B.: They borrowed from the Government?
Informant: No, they borrowed from the l"!alik people, they were two brothers. They told that they would return the money when thejr would collect from the people.  So, they returned the amount after they collected from the people. 3o, those llalik people accepted the amount back, whatever was returned to them, so, «« people were that much religious and had faith in Gurda'-'ara. It may be possible people would have given separately. Some, gave ten dollars, may be some gave 50 and. so on. ,People were not getting that much money at that tine as now. People used to carry the lumber on their shoulder and